How To Recruit An SEO - The SEO Industry Leaders Reveal Their Secrets |
| How To Recruit An SEO - The SEO Industry Leaders Reveal Their Secrets Posted: 24 Oct 2011 01:44 PM PDT Posted by Matthew Ogston This post was originally in YOUmoz, and was promoted to the main blog because it provides great value and interest to our community. The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of SEOmoz, Inc. There comes a point in your career as an SEO when you need to recruit someone else. Whether that's to expand your own consulting firm, or as part of your management role within another company – either way you need to get another human being on-board with what you are doing.
Hiring is important, people can make or break a team, they create a culture and they determine whether your client projects are going to succeed or fail. You get my point, making good decisions when it comes to who you hire is critical. So how do you get good at hiring? Don't believe anyone who tells you that getting good at hiring is an overnight thing; that being said, there is a lot we can learn from people out there doing the hiring right now and I've been lucky enough to talk with some of the brightest minds in the SEO business to get to know their thought processes, insights, secrets, mistakes and tips. I imagine the following individuals need no introduction so I want to jump straight in to the good stuff but before I do I want to say a massive thank you to (in alphabetical order..) Patrick Altoft, Richard Baxter, Will Critchlow, Rand Fishkin, Russ Jones, Rob Kerry, Ian Lurie, Dave Naylor and Ben Norman. All of these guys either run or form part of the leadership team at some of the world's most widely respected SEO companies (mainly agencies, but Rand of course runs SEOmoz) so they definitely know their stuff when it comes to building a team that makes a business successful. Quick Question Links
#1 - How did you 'learn to hire'? Always a fun question to ask people since many will tell you that you can't learn to hire but still some very interesting responses. "You can't really learn how to hire a good SEO from a book or a seminar, some of the worst interviews that I've witnessed have been conducted by highly trained HR personnel. My hiring experience comes from the few interviews that I've had on the other side of the table, and 7+ years of practice in hiring SEOs." – Rob Kerry "There is no special formula or book that can teach that as far as I have seen." – Patrick Altoft "I taught myself through trial and error. I had to learn what a 'bad hire' looked like, first. It's expensive, but a mistake I think we all make from time to time." – Richard Baxter "Primarily from trial and error actually :-) I made a lot of hiring mistakes early in my career and over time, learned from that." – Rand Fishkin "I learnt how to interview from previous roles in other companies along with coaching from fellow coworkers at those companies." – Ben Norman "I don't think I have learnt how to hire an SEO as each experience and case is different. We don't follow typical recruitment patterns really as we hate the recruitment process that seems to be the norm these days with first and second interviews, having to do reports or develop a SEO strategy as people can prep for these things and often it doesn't show their real skills or personality." – Dave Naylor "Oh, I'm still learning. My role models tend to be historical: Abraham Lincoln surrounded himself with smart people he knew wouldn't always agree, but would be willing to say 'You're wrong, Mr. President.' I try very hard to do the same." – Ian Lurie "Like pretty much everything we do these days, I would say we have picked it up from some combination of first principles, trial and error and research. We have read a lot and taken a lot of advice, but you only really learn by doing." – Will Critchlow "I have always been a decent judge of personality and character, which tend to be the most important assets in a small business...the CEO of our company, who has far more experience hiring and firing, has been most useful in shaping who and how I hire." – Russ Jones The key takeaways from this seem to be that 'learning how to hire' comes with experience, a little theory from books and blogs, surrounding yourself with mentors you can learn from and making a few mistakes along the way. #2 – Do you hire with your heart or your head? "Most definitely my heart. It's probably not ideal but genuinely, I look out for people I think will blend in well with the team (a cultural fit) – this can't be measured with facts and figures, at least not in my experience. Obviously there's a requirement to demonstrate previous achievements, but I also look for raw intelligence and problem solving over experience. SEO I can teach, attitude and aptitude I cannot." – Richard Baxter Richard's thoughts on this really resonated with me and his logic rings true across any sector – industry-specific skills can be taught but you can't change how a person is. "Both. Because SEOmoz is such a strong, culture-driven environment, I think it's essential to have great culture-fit and the ability to enjoy one another's company, personally and professionally." – Rand Fishkin "I believe that I hire more with my heart than my head, but rarely do I find that they conflict." – Russ Jones "We use a bit of both really you need to use your head to ensure they are qualified to do the role and to answer the logistical questions such as skills and experience but you need to use your heart to ensure they are a good fit for your team and to understand how much they want the role and how much they are prepared to commit. We find that the people with less experience and more determination and want to succeed often end up doing better in the role as they are more committed." – Ben Norman "I reckon it's neither heart or head...normally it's a gut instinct." – Dave Naylor "I wish I could say my head, but I tend to hire more with my heart. In the end, my gut is always almost right, and my 'business sense' hiring decisions tend to end horribly. I think it makes sense in the end - if you respect and like someone you work with, then you work together through rough spots. If you don't like/respect them, then it's very hard to feel like it's worth working through the rough spots." – Ian Lurie "I would say we as a company are led by our hearts. We don't put a huge stock in CVs or degrees (not even requiring them in many cases). We want to see the real evidence of the right kinds of skills, abilities and attitudes but it doesn't have to be particularly formal. On a personal note, I am perhaps slightly more 'head' driven than the others - I do at least tend to turn to that part of the CV and ask about degrees, previous jobs etc in detail." – Will Critchlow "I always hire with my heart, not my head. If your team is important to you, you want to protect it. This is when you start getting good/bad hunches about candidates. This is another reason why the person heading up an SEO team should conduct the hiring, what's written on a CV is of very little value in an SEO role." – Rob Kerry #3 – In one sentence, and in your view, what makes an SEO candidate very hireable? "A good understanding of the technical aspects of a website, and most importantly a real passion for the SEO industry." – Dave Naylor "A good SEO candidate is passionate about their craft, either running their own test/affiliate sites outside of work or being heavily active in helping the SEO community." – Rob Kerry "The ability to demonstrate their understanding of how SEO works within the interview without sounding exactly the same as what's written on our website." – Patrick Altoft "The most important asset an SEO can have is an unquenchable desire to learn, we turn down nearly every applicant who claims to already 'know' SEO." – Russ Jones "[An SEO] that's smart and gets stuff done" – Will Critchlow "Intellectual curiosity, written communications skills and a good, problem-solving mind are my top three requirements." – Ian Lurie "Having applicable skills and some kind of experience along with the love and passion to put in all that is needed to succeed in the role." – Ben Norman "Very smart, likeable and hardworking." – Richard Baxter "The three qualities that have produced the most successful SEOs are, in my view - #1: phenomenal ability to learn & adapt; #2: the ability and drive to find and execute solutions, aka hustle; #3 - the ability to influence people and organizations with data + inspiration." – Rand Fishkin Passion is important to these guys so the key takeaway from this question is that when it comes to hiring the right kind of SEO, looking for ways to attract passionate individuals into your team is a must. As a side note for anyone reading this who wants a job (rather than to fill a job); it is clear from these responses that anyone looking to get on in the world of SEO is going to need some serious passion, both for working hard and producing top notch work as well as a passion for learning and developing yourself. Really convey your passion for the industry. #4 – How important is it for a candidate to have their own website or portfolio? "It's all about evidence of capability for me, at least past a certain time in the industry. Someone who owns and runs a successful site of their own is highly likely to have developed SEO skills beyond that of an SEO with no sites at all." – Richard Baxter "Pretty important as it shows that they have the enthusiasm to learn and have dedicated their own time to learn more about SEO." – Dave Naylor "Having your own portfolio of websites is not essential for an SEO joining Ayima, but carrying a passion for SEO outside of work certainly is. If you don't own your own sites, you should still be involved in SEO networking events or online communities. Having websites to conduct tests on is very handy, as is experience in making money online through SEO. It's always interesting to see what SEOs come up with when they have very little budget and only a few hours of time each weekend." – Rob Kerry "It's an excellent signal, but I have met great SEOs who don't have them (particularly if they've been in-house or on agency/consulting teams)." – Rand Fishkin "It is not essential but it is a great example of how good they are and their love of the industry if they have some sort of presence and profile online. It also makes it easier for them to demonstrate their own skills if they have examples of their own work." – Ben Norman "It really depends. If I'm hiring someone where I'm asking for experience, then a portfolio is crucial. Usually though I'm looking for the mental raw materials, in which case it's less important." – Ian Lurie "Any experienced SEO should be able to show sites they have set up even if they are low quality affiliate sites." – Patrick Altoft "They don't need to necessarily have their own personal website, but they do need to have a portfolio of work. I want to see what the candidate does online from 5 to 9, not from 9 to 5. The more interesting, experimental, and impressive that part of their resume is, the more likely they will join our team." – Russ Jones #5 – How do you currently advertise job vacancies? Social recruiting is certainly widely used in the SEO industry and one thing is clear, recruitment agencies aren't all that popular! "Mainly on our website. We also tend to list in a few other places, but increasingly we get our applicants via our extended network and blog / twitter followers." – Will Critchlow "We have a couple folks who do in-house recruiting and use a combination of tactics including LinkedIn connections, team solicitation, job boards and then have a funnel process for reviewing applications, having phone calls, in-person interviews, etc." – Rand Fishkin "One thing for sure is that we never use recruitment agencies, and never will. When we have tried to advertise a SEO position through the normal job sites we tend to end up with lots of 'tyre kickers'. We have filled nearly every SEO position in Bronco by being approached out of the blue by people who want to work for us." – Dave Naylor "We advertise on our own site, Twitter and LinkedIn. We'll also reach out through local universities where it makes sense. We do use Craigslist at times, but with only mixed results. My existing network is my best source of recruits." – Ian Lurie "We use several jobs boards along with Facebook and our website advertising, along with word of mouth to find the right people, although the bigger we are getting and more well know we have more and more people seeking us out eliminating the need to advertise ourselves." – Ben Norman "We tend to advertise on our blog and website and have relationships with local universities to fill graduate roles." – Patrick Altoft "Craigslist, Linked In and SEOMoz" – Russ Jones "Ayima is lucky enough to have independent channels into the SEO community via our LondonSEO networking events and the LinkedSEO group on LinkedIn. We also advertise roles via Twitter, LinkedIn Status Updates and Facebook. Ayima's London-based SEO team was built from existing friends in the industry (networking works!) and people that follow me on Twitter. Our latest hire, is the only exception to this rule – he found us via the old SEOgadget job board." – Rob Kerry "We rank number 1 in the UK for 'SEO jobs'. I used to have a jobs board but it wasn't a particularly valuable bit of the business. I binned it a few months ago. We don't use recruitment agencies – everyone who works at SEOgadget found us via Twitter or through friends." – Richard Baxter #6 - How do you test a candidate on their knowledge of SEO? "An awful lot of our hires come in as juniors and so we are often testing aptitude rather than existing knowledge. That said, when we want to dig into details, we get straight to the nitty gritty - we ask our applicants to whiteboard answers to real problems, to dig around on sites in front of us, that kind of thing. Nothing beats seeing someone's thought processes - it means you can't hide being slow to get to the answer or the wrong turns you take along the way." – Will Critchlow "I have a list of questions that I've developed over the years. I always point out though, that if a candidate doesn't know the answer, then I'm assessing them on their ability to 'figure it out' on the fly. Really smart people don't need much actual experience to be impressive in an SEO interview!" – Richard Baxter "We don't test their knowledge as such but if you are chatting for a short time about SEO you can generally gauge their understanding and level of ability." – Dave Naylor "We have developed an interview scenario where we give interviewees details about a client and 20 minutes to perform keyword research & opportunity analysis as well as devise a link strategy. It's tough but the best candidates can do it and it sorts out the candidates who struggle under pressure." – Patrick Altoft "Giving SEOs a test on the first interview is essential for me, there are SEOs in very high-up positions at other agencies who would not pass one of our basic tests. As I mentioned before, never trust CVs, you can easily cruise for years in an in-house or agency SEO role without even knowing the basics. I'm evil (you didn't know?), so I try to make candidates as stressed as possible during the test! Give the Windows users a Mac to use, don't tell them about the test, put them on the spot. This not only proves their experience but also their ability to cope under pressure. You don't expect them to be perfect (even the coolest cats crumble), but it reveals more than any other interview question. Giving advanced notice of the test or the site you're planning to ask them to review voids the test's validity, my mum could pass an SEO test if she had time to revise." – Rob Kerry "Yes. We give candidates a real life example of what they would do for our company. For example, in a recent application process we asked the applicants to pretend they were given three hours by a client to recommend strategies to improve their rankings. We give them all the same website (but not an actual client) and let them prove their abilities that way." – Russ Jones "We have a set interview process along with a few practical tests that we do to ensure that they can do what they say they can." – Ben Norman "If they claim to have experience, then yes, I test the heck out of them. I show them code and ask them if anything's wrong with it; I ask them to optimize copy; I present scenarios where clients resist change and ask how they'd work to make their case; and I ask questions about current industry knowledge. I'll also often ask questions about information retrieval, but that's just mean :)" – Ian Lurie I think it can be said that it is about how the candidate responds as opposed to the answer they give i.e. how do they cope under pressure, how creative are they and how quick on their feet can they be. #7 – What is one question you ask every interviewee? "What do you think about paid links? There is so much wrapped up in this debate - Return on Investment, Ethics, Risk, etc. that we can learn a lot from a candidate. There is no right answer to this question, but there are tons of wrong ones." – Russ Jones "Are you a good team player?" – Dave Naylor "My interview questions tend to be consistent in order to make candidates easier to compare. I do like the cliché question of 'Where would you like to be in 5-10 years?'. Someone destined for mainstream agencies will answer 'I'd like to be promoted, possibly doing your job'. A candidate destined for in-house will answer 'I'm happy just to stay a consultant and get deep into a big SEO campaign'. An Ayima candidate will often say 'I don't want to be an SEO consultant all my life. Ideally I'd be on a beach earning affiliate money whilst sipping down a Daiquiri. Maybe not in five years, but hopefully in 10.'" – Rob Kerry "Why do you want to do SEO?" – Patrick Altoft "Why do you want to work at Distilled? We are in a very lucky position these days to get quite a few applicants who really want to work with us and this helps us gauge how much they know about the way we operate. We're pretty transparent in what we do and how we work so if someone has done their research, they will really know that they want to join the team." – Will Critchlow "In a perfect world, what do you want to be doing in three years?" – Ian Lurie "Why do you want to work at startup vs. something more stable and more specifically, why SEOmoz?" – Rand Fishkin "Why should we give you the role? It works well at ensuring they believe in themselves and actually understand why they want the role." – Ben Norman "Why do you want to work at SEOgadget?" – Richard Baxter #8 – Do you prefer a formal/informal interview process? "I like to do both for the exec level candidates I personally hire, but for most roles, two rounds of formal interviews are our process." – Rand Fishkin "Very informal process. The last guy we employed, Steve, we did just following what was meant to be a half hour telephone interview which turned into a two hour chat about SEO." – Dave Naylor "At the start of Ayima, I used to have a very informal interview style – largely because I already knew the people I was hiring. I interviewed Chewie and Jane down the pub. As we've grown, I've adapted to a more formal interview style, partly because I do not know the candidates already and partly because I need to comply with HR and employment laws." – Rob Kerry "Our interviews tend to be 30-60 minutes and are quite informal." – Patrick Altoft "Informal. We don't work in a formal atmosphere daily, so why should we pretend one exists for an interview? Plus, it is always fun to see applicants walk in with three-piece suits while we are in jeans and the latest Woot T-Shirt." – Russ Jones #9 – Do you have a secret method for assessing candidates? "Present them with a tough problem and see how they respond. Don't demand a right answer. It's more important, initially, to see what they do. If they stare into space, or attempt to BS and answer, they're a poor candidate. If they're willing to say they don't know, or that they'll research it, they're a good candidate." – Ian Lurie "Pick on them. I always make some sarcastic, disparaging comment - normally something about how they are dressed up and everyone else is in shorts, or they went to a rival university, etc. While it is all in jest, seeing how a person responds to a jab (no matter how insignificant) is essential to rolling with the punches in SEO. Every day there is a Google update to contend with that will potentially push one of our many clients back. If you can't handle a joke with grace, how will you handle a slap in the face from Google?" – Russ Jones "If we told you it wouldn't be very secret now would it :)" – Ben Norman "Don't think so apart from the normal social media stalking and checking a few sites that they have worked on." – Dave Naylor "No, but I did consider taking our group interviewees to the go karting track and only putting the top three through to the second round" – Richard Baxter "There's no secret to assessing a candidate, you literally feel good about them or you don't. My team is like my extended family, I only let people in if I trust them enough to be part of that family. That's not saying that there is anything wrong with the people that I turn down, I've even turned down existing friends before, it's more about whether they'd fit into our culture and ways of working." – Rob Kerry "Nope! We're committed to transparency, so we try to be very upfront about expectations. We believe an interview is a great opportunity for a candidate to learn more about the company, too, so we want to put our best foot forward." – Rand Fishkin #10 – Do you hire based on number of years' experience or quality of that experience? "Experience comes with baggage, so we focus on quality. I know plenty of SEOs with fewer than two or three years of experience who exceed the talents of known industry professionals." – Russ Jones "I don't think you can measure the quality of experience – it's more about the results and the candidate's ability to walk you through what they did. If the quality of the approach was sound, you know you've got a good SEO." – Richard Baxter "SEO experience is relative to effort rather than years. Some of our SEOs have only 4/5 years of experience, but they've done an awful lot during that time. Attitude is probably as important as experience, the willingness to learn a completely different approach to SEO and to accept that most SEO blog posts and courses are BS. Saying that, almost half our team has been doing SEO for over a decade." – Rob Kerry "We hire based on intelligence and aptitude. Since Branded3 does SEO differently to every other agency in the area we don't usually employ candidates from other agencies although we do interview quite a few." – Patrick Altoft "Almost always quality and what they've accomplished rather than raw years." – Rand Fishkin "Totally on the quality of experience. They could have been in the SEO industry for as long as me but may not be the right fit for Bronco, or not be good enough." – Dave Naylor #11 – What do you do to retain talent in your business? "Quite a lot! Every staff member gets to attend a few conferences (we're all going to searchlove, conversion conference), the famous Nando's Friday, SEO Forum Fridays, Go-Karting and staff days out, your birthday off for free, season ticket / laptop loans and a few special things we're working on for early next year." – Richard Baxter "We make Bronco the kind of company that if Becky and I had to work somewhere we would want to work for Bronco. We try to create a great atmosphere in the office where we work and play hard. We give out free broadband, private health care, fuel payments for people who drive to work, a well-stocked kitchen with fresh fruit and biscuits, and the BroncoPlex which gives staff a breakout area to play pool, arcade games, darts and the xbox. We also pay excellent salaries, high bonuses and have great parties." – Dave Naylor "We work hard to make Moz one of the city's best places to work. I'm proud to say that we've got a very good retention rate with team members so far." – Rand Fishkin "We offer a fun, thriving and growing place to work with good remuneration and benefits." – Ben Norman "I have high expectations and make them known. I respect my employees as equals, in both good and bad situations. And I reward them in every way possible for taking the initiative, learning and helping Portent grow." – Ian Lurie "We have an internal focus on being 'the best place for the best people to work'. Another one of those sentences with so much buried in it. It doesn't mean we'll be the best place for everyone to work - and it doesn't mean we just get to sit around on beanbags all day (that wouldn't be 'work'). Manifestations of this range from the work we do to push people to take more responsibility, to do bigger and better things through to the mundane bits round the edges like beer o'clock, the hack days, the move to laptops so everyone has flexibility in work environment. To be honest, it's an area we are constantly trying to do more in. One recent addition was the creation of a personal 'learning budget' for everyone to spend as they wish on any kind of learning. We value curiosity and we think learning new stuff brings value in all kinds of ways - even if it isn't pure SEO training." – Will Critchlow "When you leave Virante at the end of the day, you normally don't feel like you have been at work. We spend a lot of energy vetting people for their personalities in the hiring process that it is genuinely fun to be at Virante. We call this our No Asshole policy." – Russ Jones "I retain staff by doing the opposite of what you're meant to do – I treat staff like friends/family. Our team banter probably breaks many HR guidelines, but I've never lost a team member and know that they have my back – no matter what." – Rob Kerry #12 – What kind of culture are you looking to create within your business? "The culture of a modern, hard-working, and successful SEO company. As Directors we're working harder than we have ever done pushing the company forward. Even though the company is doing extremely well, we're not driving to work in Ferraris as we have built the company so that as the company grows the staff will reap the rewards too." – Dave Naylor "Ayima has a dot com feel to it, but we also make a nice profit! The SEO team goes for beers at least a few times a week and Ayima holds at least two company parties a year at swanky bars and restaurants. We work late or on weekends now and again, but counter that with a lot of fun (sometimes in other countries). Our company also has a relatively flat structure, with all of the SEOs at the same level on our org chart. This removes the inner-battles for promotion that the traditional agency model often brings with it. The team is happy in the knowledge that they get rewarded in more meaningful ways and that the fun/big clients get spread evenly among the group." – Rob Kerry "I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that we are trying to 'create' a culture. Virante's culture exists because we have chosen to hire good people with great senses of humor who genuinely want to do a good job - whatever that job may be. Subsequently, our culture is best described as 'awesome'." – Russ Jones "A relaxed but professional environment which supports professional growth and rewards hard work." – Ben Norman "We're very explicit about our culture; you can read more about that here." – Rand Fishkin #13 – What skills would you like to see more SEOs have? "The default answer seems to be 'coding skills' right now but I think it's more about deep creativity – the ability to craft truly amazing content and understand what makes for successful content on the web is one of my top hiring priorities!" – Richard Baxter "Programming and software engineering are the specific skills that I think a lot of SEOs would benefit from developing." – Rand Fishkin "I'd like to see more SEOs with tech backgrounds, which would be possible if Eric Schmidt's wish or the UK education system comes true. Marketing degrees are pretty much useless for SEOs, whereas knowing why different servers/platforms do different things and how to implement SEO tech fixes is very valuable. I have no problem hiring people that simply have a desire to learn these skills though. I'm also a big fan of specialists in certain areas, such as our Dave's experience in Local Search, or people with some social media planning/rigging background." – Rob Kerry "I probably value technical / mathematical skills quite highly because that's my background, but as an industry, I wish we all had a more solid grounding in regular marketing theory and practice - we can be too cut off from all the learning that has gone before. I'm sure we are constantly reinventing traditional marketing's wheel." – Will Critchlow "Programming. An SEO who can't code is like a conductor who can't play an instrument." – Russ Jones "Writing. WRITING. If someone can write and communicate well, they can do anything. If they can't, everything else becomes a chore. After that, problem solving and research skills, which are sorely lacking in all industries these days." – Ian Lurie "Project management and organisational skills as these are essential for effective client management." – Ben Norman "I'd like them to have more of a grasp of the bigger picture, but that's what I'm there for!" – Dave Naylor #14 – Do you have any funny hiring stories you could share with us? "When we first brought her in for an interview (to be our office manager, by the way) my current Director of Search - a brilliant search marketer - thought we did 'paperclip marketing' and really wondered what the hell she was getting herself into. In the course of the interview it became clear she had a good brain for search marketing, and we hired her for that instead. She figured out the paperclip thing herself :)" – Ian Lurie "We had a candidate send us a pizza box recently with colored post-it notes explaining why we should hire her. That was pretty cool :-) I think some of the team is talking to her soon." – Rand Fishkin "In one interview with a graduate they stated 'so what would I need to do? I know I have to phone Google and stuff to get the stuff done but what else??"'this was quite amusing as they had no clue whatsoever." – Ben Norman "Our office is quite hard to find so most of the stories involve people being either late or not able to find the office at all. Once candidate had to be picked up from a village five miles away and another didn't arrive until 9pm at night after he was lost. He said the office was all locked up which wasn't the case so not only was he three hours late but he went to the wrong place!" – Patrick Altoft "Our longest-standing employee was six hours late (yes, you read that right) to her interview. She had transport issues on the way and did call ahead. Duncan and I waited in the office, interviewed her after hours and hired her. Her first interview question was 'would you like a beer?' (we both had one) [answer: 'Yes please!']." – Will Critchlow The hiring and recruiting challenges experienced by those interviewed reflect the attitude seen in many successful tech companies and startups. Good people are critical to the success of a growing company, and good people are hard to come by. By Matthew Ogston – CEO at JobPage.com, applicant tracking & social recruiting for the new economy. Save time and money by hiring technical and marketing staff directly |
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